Harvey Kubernik Interviews David Leaf
Harvey Kubernik, the man who brought us the Lonn Friend interview in December, and helped with networking at Alternative Tentacles for the Jello Biafra interview has delivered once again. Harvey is a mine rich with rocknroll gold, and I’m proud to bring you another Creepy Sleepy exclusive Harvey Kubernik interview. Rock.
- DHP
Filmmaker/author David Leaf interview on his “The U.S. Vs. John Lennon” feature length documentary.
By Harvey Kubernik c 2006
Since he made his first big splash in music journalism with his still unequaled Brian Wilson biography, The Beach Boys & The California Myth, David Leaf
has been one of the most distinguished writers in pop culture. He’s won
a Peabody and a WGAW award, earned a pair each of Emmy and Grammy
nominations and put together a resume that includes an amazing litany
of major icons of 20th Century pop culture.As a documentarian,
whether on his own or in tandem with John Scheinfeld, he’s been part of
a long list of remarkable productions. His solo writing/producing
credits in music and comedy include a mind-blowing series on Dean
Martin and Jerry Lewis, “You Can’t Do That,” an hilarious documentary
on “A Hard Day’s Night,” an Emmy-nominated Billy Joel special, three
years on “A&E’s Live By Request” (including highly pleasurable
two-hour shows on David
Bowie, Elton John, Carlos Santana and Elvis Costello), “Farm Aid,”
“Carnegie Hall Salutes The Jazz Masters,” nine years on “The Billboard
Awards” and other high-profile music specials.Together, Leaf
and Scheinfeld have made noteworthy music programs on: The Bee Gees,
Frank Sinatra, Nat King Cole, Rosemary Clooney, Bette Midler and many
others. Two years ago, Leaf
wrote and directed his first feature, the highly-praised “Beautiful
Dreamer: Brian Wilson & The Story of SMiLE,” and recently, he
produced Scheinfeld’s feature writing/directing debut, the much-buzzed
about “Who Is Harry Nilsson & Why Is ‘Everybody Talkin’ About Him.”
I was also interviewed for “Beautiful Dreamer” a Showtime
Original movie. I recently received a special thanks credit on “The
U.S. Vs. John Lennon,” a film that Leaf and Scheinfeld wrote, directed and produced “The
U.S. Vs. John Lennon,” movie that was distributed theatrically this
past fall 2006 by Lions Gate Films in their joint venture with
Paramount Pictures and VH-1. In the first week of December of this past
year their compelling movie opened in the U.K. and Europe markets. On
February 13th 2007 the DVD version of “The U.S. Vs. John Lennon” produced by Leaf
and Scheinfeld for their Authorized Pictures is released by Lions Date
in North America containing an hour of bonus footage in addition to the
original movie.“. . . chilling . . . moving to the point of tears . . . (a) smart, deeply affecting film . . .”
- Ann Hornaday, The Washington Post
“An
immensely important and engrossing film that should not be missed under
any circumstances. A fascinating and controversial look at a true 20th
century genius under fire.”- Pete Hammond, Maxim
“Couldn’t arrive sooner . . . Leaf and Scheinfeld have gifted us with 99 minutes of optimism in a time of peril, pessimism and desperation.” - Michael Simmons, The Huffington Post
“Poignant and topical . . . Leaf and Scheinfeld establish their protagonist as the most quick-witted of public figures.” - J. Hoberman, The Village Voice
Since “The
US. Vs. John Lennon” was released domestically in fall 2006 it has
generated over a million dollars at the box office in limited and
select distribution, placing it economically in the Top Ten all-time
political documentaries. “Not only are there some
interesting bonus features but that there is one piece with Yoko that
is one of the most extraordinary things I’ve ever seen,” suggests Leaf
in his Studio City, California production office in mid-November. “When
we taped it I got goose bumps. For anybody who cares about John Lennon
it’s an amazing thing to see. The hour of bonus material
are pieces that just didn’t fit into the movie the way we ultimately
constructed the movie. For example, the ‘Two Virgins’ album cover. John’s
first F.B.I. document relates to somebody complaining about that.
Initially we cut a little sequence together on ‘Two Virgins’ and
ultimately we took it out of the film because it was off story.In September Capitol Records released a soundtrack album to coincide with this important feature length-movie. Yoko Ono penned the liner notes to this special audio collection.
I first met Leaf
almost exactly thirty years ago, when we spent Labor Day weekend in
Southern California sleeping outside the box office of the Santa Monica
Civic Auditorium for Bruce Springsteen tickets.Our first half of this
conversation took place at his office in summer of 2006, just after I
was privileged to see the Lennon film during final editing stages. We
had a longer new discussion this past November.There are 37 Lennon
songs played in the movie, including “Power To The People” and “Instant
Karma,” as well as three Beatles’ recordings. Besides assorted vintage
footage of Lennon, and glimpses of Dr. Timothy Leary, Abbie Hoffman and
Jerry Rubin, the fascinating on-screen interview subjects include John
Sinclair, Tommy Smothers, Bobby Seale, Jon Weiner, Senator George
McGovern, Gore Vidal, Angela Davis, Noam Chomsky, Bob Gruen, Yoko Ono,
Ron Kovic and Walter Cronkite,Q: Why did you do this movie, and how
did you develop the concept for “The U.S. Vs. John Lennon”? What are
its roots…and did you and Scheinfeld initially see it as a feature
length movie?A: Nearly a decade ago, when we first
conceived of making a documentary about how the U.S. Government….more
specifically, the Nixon administration…had waged a secret war against
John Lennon, we didn’t conceive of it as a feature length documentary.
We just knew it was an important story, one we felt needed to be told,
and we wanted to find a television network that would commission us to
do it. The movie was sold by Bruce Kaufman who agented the package in
the fall of 2004. We sat down and made a wish list of the right places
for the film. And I went and met with a half a dozen companies on that
list. I walked through the door at Lions Gate and they said yes. What
we had when I walked into these meetings was a story, not a written
treatment, but a story I could tell, a title, which we thought was a
very provocative title, and we also had reached an understanding with
Yoko Ono that she would participate on camera in the movie. Which to us
was absolutely essential in telling the story. The folks at Lions Gate
knew immediately that telling this story of an artist against the U.S.
government through this historical prism we could tell a story that
happened over 35 years ago but it would also have a relevance to today.
‘Beautiful Dreamer’ which was a film I directed in 2004 for Showtime
Original had just come out when I started having meetings for this
movie. And one of the executives at Lions Gate who I met with was such
a big Brian Wilson fan that when I came in the door to talk about ‘The
U.S. vs. John Lennon’ greeted me with, ‘that’s great, but I want to
talk to you about ‘SMilE.’ In any endeavor like this when you are
looking for like-minded people like this to be your partners it’s
wonderful to meet people who know your work and like what you do.Q: How did you decide to blend music and
politics initially, and after editing, why does the movie work both
musically, politically and spiritually?A: Probably going all the way back to
“You Can’t Do That,” the documentary I did about “A Hard Day’s Night”,
but more recently, beginning with the Bee Gees biography we did, we
have been privileged to use the artist’s own music…and as much as
possible, only their music…as an integral part of the
storytelling. Especially when it’s part of the underscore, it’s a way
of allowing the viewer to almost subliminally be “drenched” in the
music of our subject.For “The U.S. Vs. John Lennon,” as we
did with the Bee Gees, the Brian Wilson/Beautiful Dreamer documentary
and our Harry Nilsson feature doc (the amazing film that John
Scheinfeld wrote and directed), we were able to do something that for
us as music fans was a dream come true–we were allowed to “strip” lead
vocals from the artists original recordings, so that we could use their
own instrumental work as the score for the movie. In the case of
“The U.S. Vs. John Lennon,” I think it’s the first time that John’s
solo catalogue can be heard in this way.As to why and how the movie “works,”
we’ll leave that to other people to judge, but what works for us is the
fact that through the use of archival audio and video, John is seen and
heard telling his own story, and his enormous brilliance and charisma
shines through. To the extent the movie works, I believe it is because
we’re telling the story through the prism of John Lennon’s enduring
greatness as an artist, a visionary and a revolutionary dreamer.Q: Can you see the relationship of your movie mirroring today’s climate of fear and finger pointing?
A: Whether the movie is relevant to
today’s world will be up to each individual filmgoer to decide. What
we attempted to do was tell John’s story as it unfolded against the
context of the times, as seen and experienced by the people who were
there. There is no voice-over narration. As filmmakers, our goal was
to immerse the viewer in the era.From the few “rough cut” screenings we
had, it seems that the movie does resonate with audiences as, to use
your phrase, in certain ways mirroring today’s climate. One of my
favorite reactions was a thirty year old woman who, during a screening,
almost got whiplash at certain moments turning to me as if to say,
“What’s happening now happened back then?” And after the movie was
finished, she almost angrily cried, “Where is our John Lennon?”Regarding the “then vs. now” comparison
you suggest, while it’s hardly an identical reflection (in the same way
the wars are very different), there are chilling moments in the film,
such as a film clip from a Nixon speech where he refuses to set a
timetable for troop withdrawal from Vietnam. At times, what was
happening to John Lennon…and indeed, in the country… sounds just
like today’s news. But I would say the valid comparison probably has
mostly to do with how the administration conducted the business of
governance.Q: Bring me through the genesis of the project initially.
A: This was a project that had long been
on our “short list.” We kept coming back to it. But it wasn’t until
sometime in 2002 that through a mutual colleague, I was introduced to
Yoko’s attorney. At that point, we began to gather some momentum.That was a major step because from our
point of view, one of the keys to this film being successful was going
to be our ability to license John’s music for the film’s score so we
could have “wall to wall” Lennon music.Perhaps the next big step was a creative
one, the film “Beautiful Dreamer: Brian Wilson & The Story of
SMiLE,” which I think was indicative of what kind of storytelling could
be done in a feature documentary.I did meet with Yoko just once before we
began production. It was to explain how we intended to tell the story
and how we wanted…needed…her to participate both on-camera in the film
and off-camera with her support. Obviously, I can’t speak for Yoko,
but I think that perhaps she just decided that the time was right for
this story to be told.Q: Take me through the interview process
you employed for this film. The artists and commentators who were
chosen to participate. Explain your draft picks, and why so many wanted
to endorse and support John Lennon’s fight. List some of your favorite
interviews that impacted you. Gore Vidal was incredible.A: John and I spent quite a long time
putting together a very ambitious list of people we wanted to
participate in the film. The main goal was to enlist a “cast” of
interviewees who were from the era, understood the times, could
contextualize the events of the Vietnam War era and understood what
John did. Many of the people we interviewed either knew John or worked
with him.Greatest interview moments? We were so
privileged on this film, and John and I often had to almost toss a coin
as to who got to interview whom. My personal favorites included
getting a “personal lecture” from Noam Chomsky, sitting with the great
historian Gore Vidal, talking Constitutional law with Gov. Mario
Cuomo, hearing from Angela Davis about the long ago battles she
fought. Geraldo Rivera was amazing. And as you’ll see in the movie,
how about Senator George McGovern spontaneously breaking into a chorus
of “Give Peace A Chance”? But perhaps the most powerful and moving of
all was Ron Kovic.Q Why were so many influential media
members and authors willing to chat about John Lennon and his plight?
Why has this chilling story sort of been relegated to the back of the
bus in terms of our cultural memory?A: John Lennon was an extraordinary
artist and a very courageous man. He was willing to use his celebrity
to make the world a better place. And that is a very dangerous threat
to “the powers that be.”I think the challenge for us was to let
the story tell itself and for us to stay out of the way…and at the
same time, bring it to the screen with a sense of visual excitement so
it wouldn’t just be “talking heads.”The themes addressed in the movie are
big ones…”war and peace,” “freedom of speech,” “dissent vs.
disloyalty,” governmental abuse of power, immigration. And while those
are all political, the film is undeniable musical, with 40
songs…three Beatles classics and 37 from John’s solo catalogue.When the events of the movie happened, I
was too young to really understand exactly what he and Yoko were doing,
so in making the movie, my respect for what they accomplished and what
they did grew exponentially.I don’t know that I learned so much but
that I was reminded of how charismatic he was, how smart he was, how
honest he was. What a sharp mind he had. Back in the day, I was so
enthralled by the Beatles that I don’t think I could really appreciate
either the gravity of the threat to John or the courage he showed in
standing up to power.I also think that the film gave me much more respect for the purity of the art he created during that time.
Q: This was a guy who loved the United
States and yet, efforts were being made to monitor his actions. What
were you and John trying to illustrate, and what does the film say to
the audience and viewers?A: Another tough question. Maybe that
great art and artistry is all that matters….all that survives
through the ages. And that everything we need to know about the past
can be heard through the art of the times.And…I think the film reminds us to be ever vigilant in defense of the Constitution.
Q: As a filmmaker, and a veteran of some
seminal pop and rock music documentaries, can you expand on some
cinematic areas that integrate picture and sound.A: Anything that enhances storytelling
that remains true to the story is valuable. In “The U.S. Vs. John
Lennon,” John’s music is vital to giving us vital information,
eliciting emotion and moving the story forward.In regard to visuals, in the film we
have used the most sophisticated graphics we could afford. A great
team at Sony Music Studios in New York (check out the film credits)
really helped bring a visual excitement and unity to the film. And our
editor, the brilliant Pete Lynch, has an amazing ability to combine
visuals with music to help us make films that hold up under repeated
viewing…that almost demand repeated viewing because there is so
much happening on screen.We love using archival
footage, especially when we can find footage that hasn’t been
overexposed. And in “The U.S. Vs. John Lennon,” we have a lot of
footage that will surprise even the most accomplished collectors.
Without going into detail, there is a considerable amount of archival
video and audio in the film that has either never been seen or heard
before, hasn’t been seen in 35 years or was never seen in the U.S.Color footage is especially striking,
especially when it comes from an era when color television was still
something of a novelty. But generally, black and white footage is
sharper and for some reason, feels more “historic,” whatever that
means. Back in the day, John and Yoko had cameras or tape recorders
around them constantly as if they were living a reality show. They were
artists and documentarians. So we were fortunate to have access to the
real deal the film itself. What you see of the John Sinclair concert
they performed at in 1971 was in a quality that has never been seen
before. That’s true of everything in the movie. We have a great
research team both here at the production company and the people who
work around the world with us to get as close to the source material as
possible. So that anything that is in the movie is as
good as it can be quality wise. But the key is it part of the story.
Our archivists searching the world found this Austrian Bagism event
that no one had ever seen. You’ve heard the phrase ‘Bagism’ in the song
for 37 years but what is bagism? And to see john and Yoko in the bag as
it was happening at the time is extraordinary. To see John getting his
green card. No one has seen that footage probably since it was aired on
the local news 30 years ago.I mentioned him a few moments ago. Pete
Lynch has edited our last three feature documentaries and almost all of
our television specials during the past five years. He’s a brilliant
young man with an extraordinary sensibility. He also is gifted in the
artistic ways he uses music in the editing room. Really can’t sing his
praises enough.The music is an integral part of the movie from before the editing process even begins. It’s
all about whatever works. I think storytelling is what matters most.
And the challenge in this film was that to understand the story, one
needed to understand the times in which it happened, and that was a
particularly daunting challenge. To do that in a journalistically
responsible way, we needed a lot of voices in the film, a lot of
“talking heads” to give us the kaleidoscope of perspectives that
existed back then.But one of the keys to any kind of
fact-based film, documentary or scripted, is maintaining the pace, not
getting bogged down in the story. And music is particularly vital to
keeping the forward motion of a documentary. The key to a film is that
there can only be one story that you tell, unless you’re Robert Altman.
But in terms of staying on story was what that meant for us because we
weren’t producing a John Lennon anthology in 4, 6 or 8 hours, which
would be a lovely thing to do. So there were aspects of John’s life in
the story that we either chose not to include in the film or dealt with
as expeditiously as possible. We had some footage of John and Yoko at a
1972 election night party and they were upset that Nixon had won and
George McGovern lost. But we decided what happened that night wasn’t
relevant to telling the story in ‘The U.S. vs. John Lennon.’ In all
film story is king. It just is. If you don’t tell your story well you
lose the audience. The challenge is to draw them in quickly. You have
to make the audience sit with you and go on this ride for 90 minutes.Q: Capitol Records issued a soundtrack
to your movie. How were the Lennon songs selected? And why the 3
Beatles songs picked for inclusion? What is the mindset you and John
had when constructing the soundtrack CD? Do the songs work away from
the screen as a cohesive compilation?A: A lot of questions, so let me see if I can give you a sense of the process.
Yoko, the folks at EMI (notably Herb
Agner, Lisa Wohl and Cynthia Sexton) and the Lionsgate music team
(headed up by Jay Faires) felt that the film merited a soundtrack.
It’ll feature somewhere around 16-18 songs. The film itself has 40
music cues, including 37 Lennon (and Ono) solo works. The process of
picking the songs is both musical and lyrical. Certain songs are
essential to the story (and those are the ones that are featured both
prominently in the movie and on the soundtrack.) Then, there are other
songs that instrumentally have the right tempo, force, feel, etc. to
drive a scene. I don’t mean to sound like a broken record, but Pete
Lynch, our editor who did the Lennon film, our Harry Nilsson
documentary and our SMiLE film, is really brilliant at seamlessly
integrating music into our movies.The three Beatles songs, “All You Need
Is Love,” “Revolution” and “The Ballad Of John and Yoko,” are the ones
we felt were vital to showing John’s evolution during those years. And
Apple and the Beatles very graciously allowed us to not only license
those recordings but in the case of “All You Need Is Love” and
“Revolution,” the legendary performances from 1967 and 1968.Picking the songs for the soundtrack was
a group effort—the idea was to find the songs that were most
important to the film, not just John’s greatest hits which have been
well anthologized elsewhere. To a certain extent, the soundtrack is a
“Best of” the political songs of John Lennon. It could almost be
called “Power To The People.”Compilations are always tricky because
if you have and know the original albums, no amount of brilliant
sequencing can completely overcome your expectation as to what song
should come next. It’s my feeling that what makes this soundtrack so
successful…both in the movie and on CD…is that it fulfills the
textbook definition of a soundtrack—it truly sounds as if the songs
were written for the movie.We all felt that by putting together
this particular group of John Lennon songs it would be a way to
introduce him to an audience who only knew the greatest hits. What we
did at here at our company, Authorized Pictures, all of us who were
integrally involved in the film made our suggestions, Emi had their
suggestions, and reached a consensus as to what songs were both most
relevant to the soundtrack but also had an important place in the movie. We
didn’t put something on the soundtrack that wasn’t really part of the
film. Yoko takes very seriously her responsibility as the person who
makes sure that John’s legacy is properly represented in all projects
like that. Well there’s no question that Yoko Ono is misunderstood.
What I learned the most about working with her is how smart she is. And
how consistent she is in her artistic approach to everything. Here she
is in her early Seventies as determined to express herself artistically
as ever. That’s very impressive. She’s a very smart artistic woman.
Yoko did a number of interviews with the media for this film as well a
press conference with John and I in New York, and on stage in Toronto
for a Q. and A. And she was asked about when we
approached her what did she think she said replied she was watching to
see if we were going to do what we said we were going to do. She was
more than cautious, Yoko is approached all the time about people
wanting to make films about John. And to me the thing she said that was
most meaningful was that our movie was the one John would love. .Q: When the movie was released in
August, you went to the Venice Film Festival, the Toronto Film
Festival, a showing at Lincoln Center in New York City, and also
several seminal high profile screenings around Southern California.A: When we went to New York we hosted a
screening and had a press conference with Yoko. And up to Toronto for
that festival where Yoko again joined us on stage for a Q. and A. after
the screening there. That two week period where we screened it for the
world for the first time was as gratifying a thing as I’ve ever
experienced as a filmmaker. In Venice in front of an international
audience at one of the most prestigious film festivals in the world. In
Toronto in a 1,500 seat theater, John, Yoko and I walked the red carpet
and posed for the paparazzi. I don’t know when the movie will ever be
that received that day. This audience wanted to see this movie and they
got it. They laughed in the right places, they applauded in the right
places, they cried in the right places. They just loved it. We did win
an official award at Venice was The Exhibitors Award, which is a very
significant thing in that basically it’s the movie theater owners
saying this is a movie we love. And when you’ve made a film and you
want it to be seen all over the world to go to a festival like that by
the people who exhibit movies this is something we want to show in our
theaters was really exciting.The three days before the movie was
released on successive nights we screened it in Los Angeles at Leonard
Maltin’s film class at the University of Southern California, the night
prior to that we showed it for members of BAFTA, and the night before
that Jeff Ayeroff and Norman Lear had combined to host an industry
insiders screening. They had seen the movie previously and felt so
strongly about it they wanted to introduce it to people they knew in
the industry. They wanted to make sure the movie wasn’t overlooked. And
Jeff Ayeroff was also instrumental in getting the Rock The Vote people
to support it as well. In North America at one point it was playing in
over 60 cities.There were two screenings at the London Film festival that John hosted a Q. and A afterwards. The film was extremely well received
by the people there. We’re now opening in mid-December in England and
I’m going over there. I’m not bragging, but people who go to see this
movie in a theater are doing themselves a favor because this is a
communal experience. Even though it’s a documentary true story and told
through interviews and archival footage, it doesn’t have a narrator.
John Lennon is telling the story through audio, video and music. You
don’t feel like you’re being preached too or there isn’t an omnipresent
narrator telling you what to think. And so it feels like a movie
experience. And John is funny. And you want to be in a group with 300
people in a movie theater laughing. Because laughter is contagious. We
did not make this movie to preach about what is going on in the world
today. We’re to teach about what is going on in the world today. We
made this movie to tell the story of this great artist, iconic figure,
who through these beautiful dreams that he created, ‘All You Need Is
Love,’ ‘Give Peace A Chance,’ and ‘Imagine,” found himself in the cross
hairs of the Nixon administration. That’s the story we set out to tell
and that’s the story we told. Irag is never mentioned in the film. That
said, in watching the movie, especially with younger people, I remember
one screening this young woman almost got whip lash when Nixon appears
on screen talking about Vietnam and a time-table about U.S. withdrawal.
She turned around to me and said ‘I can’t believe I’m that I’m hearing
this and this happened 35 years ago, which is exactly the same script
that we’ve been hearing the last few years.’ And of course John Lennon
and all of the radical left had been wire tapped, having been ease
dropped and spied upon, and so much talk and legislation in Washington,
D.C. having to do with domestic spying and immigration, this is a story
of immigration, and deportation, so all of the hot button issues of
2006 that the campaign were about, many were addressed by John Lennon
many, many years ago.Q: You saw John Lennon perform on stage
with Elton John in 1974 at Madison Square Garden in New York. That
event informed your movie and almost a third of a century later at that
gig where John reunited with Yoko, decades later you end up
collaborating with Yoko.A: Thanksgiving night 1974, my younger
brother Ricky and a friend, and a great collector and archivist Jan
Bridge, got tickets for Elton’s show, who at the end of the concert
brought John on stage for “Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds,” “Whatever
Gets You Through The Night” and “I Saw Her standing There,” which John
introduced as ‘here’s a song by an old estranged lover of mine called
Paul.’ You think about how lucky you are to be there. It was
incredible. Think about it, the Beatles’ last concert in the United
States was summer of 1966. After that, in terms of U.S. concert stages,
John did some benefit appearances in 1969, ’70 and ’71. I
think the only appearance he did in person was that show with Elton
John. Tragically, he was getting ready to tour when he got killed. He
never got a chance to do a solo tour. At the Garden that night people
were going absolutely out of their minds. It was John Lennon for God’s
sake. The Beatles were our Gods so to see one in the flesh just didn’t
happen. Particularly John on a concert stage.The journey really begins earlier. In
December of 1963 I first heard the Beatles on a record played by an
English foreign exchange student in grade school. My prep school in New
York. We all laughed when he explained about a country going crazy for
what came out of this tiny record player was ridiculous. And then,
within a month, everyone was infected by Beatlemania. Sp, from that
point on the Beatles were all I cared about in the Sixties. Then I went
to school in Washington, D.C. Lived in a dormitory at George Washington
University that was five blocks from the White House during the Nixon
administration. George Washington University was called the most
strategically located campus in the country and was the staging ground
for many of the largest anti-war demonstrations. We used to get tear
gassed all the time on that campus. I remember opening my drapes in my
dorm one morning and an airborne division of the army was getting out
of their vehicles to surround the campus. I remember walking by the
Committee To Re-Elect The President. The acronym was Creep. I remember
going to see Norman Mailer speak at Lafayette Park across from the
White House and being chased by the civil disturbance unit of the
Washington, D.C. Police department. So, this movie for me is the
collision of my greatest youthful musical passion and the most
important political time in my life. I spent most of my time in college
at the school newspaper or the school radio station. That’s where I got
a chance to do work. I was an indifferent student.Q: You produced the terrific “The Making
Of A Hard Day’s Night” home video documentary that Phil Collins hosted.
Can you offer some observations on producer Walter Shenson’s unique
archive that was available to you, and any anecdotes about the project.
I enjoyed seeing the movie’s screenwriter, the late Alun Owen, on
screen chat about his script.A: Arguably, it’s the greatest rock movie ever, so spending months watching and rewatching, well, it was a lot of fun to make.
That was my first full-length music
documentary—it was called “You Can’t Do That: The Making of ‘A Hard
Day’s Night.” The late Mr. Shenson’s archive was enhanced by one of
the most legendary rock video/film researchers in the world, the
producer who brought me onto the project, Ron Furmanek.One of my funniest memories of that
experience was when Walter Shenson watched a “rough cut” and dryly
remarked, “Your documentary is longer than the movie.” Needless to say,
we cut about a half-hour out.I felt that a documentary on “A Hard
Day’s Night” needed to be funny and irreverent, in the spirit of the
original movie. So what I did was use a trick similar to a TV show
from the era called “Dream On.” I sat and watched “A Hard Day’s Night”
over and over and made a list of “one liners” from the Beatles.Then, as we were constructing the
storyline of the documentary, I would use the Beatles comments from the
movie to respond to what our interviewees would say. I hope it works
for people, and isn’t viewed as sacrilegious.Q: I really enjoyed your documentary on
the Bee Gees, ‘This Is Where I Came In.” Bring me through the
development and production of that project. What were some of the
essential elements that moved this impressive DVD collectively?A: “This Is Where I Came In” works, very
simply, because the Bee Gees have one of the great stories in music
history, one of the greatest bodies of work ever assembled and also
have incredible on-camera presence and a way with an anecdote. You
would have to be really incompetent to make a bad Bee Gees biography,
but I’ll immodestly say that we made a really good one. That said, I’m
very proud that our film has won many admirers, especially from friends
who weren’t particularly big Bee Gees fans who watched it and said, “I
couldn’t turn it off.” And then told me that they had much more respect
and admiration for the group than before. That means a lot to us
because one goal of ours is to make celebratory films of artists who we
care about.Q: The Bee Gees were honest interview
subjects. And you found some key archive clips in addition to an
interview with their former manager, the reclusive Robert Stigwood. How
important are the questions to the actual interview subjects to garner
results? What do you do in terms of preparation in general for this
documentary and your other work?A: The questions are important, but it’s
really the interview subject who decides how much they’re going to
“give” in an interview. For this film, we had the advantage of a
decades long relationship. I first worked with the Bee Gees in the
late 1970s on their authorized autobiography and had worked with them a
number of times after that, so there was a certain built in trust.
That is really the key. If your “subject” believes that you will
“protect” them in the editing room, they will be more giving in the
interview.Preparation in documentary making is no
different from any other type of writing and reporting—simply, you
need to know your subject better than anybody else. That said, I don’t
like to over-prepare for a specific interview, because I find that I
can be more effective if I just take the conversation where it’s
naturally going, only returning to my prepared questions if and when
necessary. Some of the best stories we’ve gotten on tape in our docs
are cosmic accidents. Our job is to create an environment in which the
interviewee “forgets” there’s a cameraQ: You staged the “Tribute To Brian
Wilson Concert” in New York almost 5 years ago. What is it like for you
to witness and see Brian and his band over the last 6 or 7 years
perform “Pet Sounds” let alone “SMile” in concert settings. We never
thought these works would be presented, le alone, expanded or recreated
in concert halls globally. Some times it was you, me, Brian and your
wife Eva, eating at the Hamburger Hamlet 8 or 9 years ago
all dreaming and hoping Brian at the table could eventually do some
concerts and include some songs from his catalog. But this full
throttle big spectrum ride has been inspirational. And you have written
the most words on Brian and the Beach Boys in books, programs, liner
notes to albums, in popular culture history, addition to helming
documentaries and film projects about him.A: By the time we had done the tribute
concert in New York Brian had already done his first ‘Pet Sounds’ tour.
Which was an extraordinary experience because his band is so great.
Brian loves singing and playing that music. It was like going to see
the best sermon you could have imagined every night unfold in front of
you. There were 12,00-13,000 people at the Hollywood Bowl in 2000 when
he performed with the Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra. He’s now
concluding a brief tour of “Pet Sounds” this year and Al Jardine has
joined the band.The feeling of hearing it live has not
changed anything. It’s a celebration. He was tentative in 2000 and not
he is performing with confidence and singing better than he has in his
solo touring career. I think ‘Pet Sounds’ that Brian finished before
his 24th birthday gets deeper and deeper as the years past
we realize that it was incredible when it came out, incredible 10, 20 ,
30 and 40 years afterwards. 40 years later, contemporary popular music
has moved in various different directions.My story is surreal in the extreme,
regarding ‘Pet Sounds’ and ‘SmILE.’ given my history with the story and
the music. And then to be the one that Brian trusted to chronicle and
bring the movie out. Watching the first show in England when ‘Smile”
was played… There was no question that this was an event that was
emotionally fraught with a lifetime of baggage. And so we were all
psychically willing Brian on to do it. It’s Muhammad Ali. He went out
there and went the distance. He did it and got better and better as
each show went on. It’s so hard to imagine what this has done to Brian
and Van Dyke Parks. If you know when you’re in your early twenties,
create this extraordinary work of art, it never gets finished, it never
gets out, it kind of comes out in bastardized piece meal form and no
one ever gets to ever hear it the way you know it was being created.
That’s very painful for an artist. So, there’s a tremendous sense of
gratitude and relief on Van Dyke’s part, that not only did it get done
but it was received in a way that there’s a website that shows that
it’s the best reviewed music of the 21st century. The
reception of it, that it did not disappoint, that it exceeded
expectations, in a world where nothing lives up to the hype. We’re not
gonna live to see anything like this again.Brian is a different person now. ‘Pet
Sounds’ was an important step towards him reclaiming his musical
legacy, and it was an important step of him understanding that his band
was capable of playing the most complicated works he could write. For
me the biggest challenge in making a film about ‘SmILE” that did not
disappoint him. For Brian had already conquered his
demons when we left London. He was on the back nine hitting it down the
middle of the fairway. He felt immense relief. It was the biggest
albatross in the world and suddenly it was out there. In London after
doing the first 20 minute section he was waiting to see for the first
break to see how the audience was going to respond. When
they applauded, that relief became joy and exautation as the night and
week went on. Brian has expressed to me in a number of ways and times
everything I would need to hear him say thanking me for what I’ve done
and I have to thank him more than he has to thank me. He’s allowed me
to bring his many stories to the world.Brian loves ‘The U.S. Vs. John Lennon.’
He’s seen it a few times. An early screening at the Lions Gate
screening room when it wasn’t quite finished. He came to another
screening as well with Melinda. Brian loves John Lennon. Paul McCartney
and Brian Wilson are like twin sons of different mothers in musical
terms. They are born just two days apart. John and Paul both called
Brian to tell him how much they loved ‘Pet Sounds’ when it was
initially released in 1966. But you ask Brian to list his favorite rock
‘n’ roll singers of all time and John Lennon is right at the top. The
thing about this movie ‘The U.S. Vs. John Lennon’ is that we never get
a chance to spend time with John Lennon. You forget about how much you
love him. And when you see him in this archival footage you are
reminded why you love him. It’s not about nostalgia. It’s about taking
a look about what maters to you and what matters.Q: Looking back on your Brian Wilson
“SMile” movie and DVD earlier this decade, you’ve had some time to
reflect on the work, talk to me about your initial concerns as you
prepared to lens this “unfinished melodic journey” and how you view and
feel now about the retail release that has been critically hailed. What
about the questions you prepared for this “SMilE” movie? Or, was it
finding some interview subjects that never had gone on camera that
propelled this story? I would also think that your “SMilE” movie helped
bring you into some pitch meetings and film companies who wanted to
know about the Lennon project, and had to be fans of “SMile” and wanted
to do business with you and your production company.A: I’ll take those in reverse order. I
think that “Beautiful Dreamer” showed people what we could do…and may
have also confirmed that a musical documentary could be about more than
music.The biggest concern I had in making the
SMiLE doc was in trying to make a film that was worthy of Brian and his
creation, what is undoubtedly one of the greatest musical creations of
the last century. I’m really proud of what we did there…especially
of Brian’s courage in finishing it, and finishing it so brilliantly.
How often in life does something live up to our expectations? The
music of SMiLE did that…and Brian’s heroic journey to its completion
is the most inspiring thing I’ve ever experienced.Q: Viewers and music collectors really got to see the story behind the story of the fabled “SMile.”
A: The people we interviewed for the
film…some of whom have never spoken on-camera about that
era…allowed us to get “inside” the story and the era. And Brian’s
willingness to verbally share his feelings as he rode the emotional
journey…a trip that lasted nearly 40 years…was so generous. I’m
forever indebted to him for both encouraging me…and for letting me
make that movie.When Fred Shuster,
music editor for “The Daily News” did an article last decade on the
enormous reggae music archive collection of writer/scholar Roger
Steffens that at the time was partially housed and displayed at the
Queen Mary venue in Long Beach, California, Shuster wrote, “It may be
the first museum exhibit you can dance to.” At the time I included that
Shuster comment in my own “This Is Rebel Music” book profile on
Steffens, adding, “the last time I talked to John Lennon was after a
Wailers Roxy Theater show. I wish he could have seen and heard the
reggae here.” I really wish John Lennon could have seen and heard the movie “The U.S. Vs. John Lennon.”(Harvey Kubernik is the author of the
hardcover books “This Is Rebel Music: The Harvey Kubernik InnerViews”
and “Hollywood Shack Job: Rock Music in Film and on Your Screen” both
published in North America by the University of New Mexico Press. In
2006 he also penned the liner notes to the Water Records CD reissue of
Allen Ginsberg’s “Kaddish” album. In November of 2006 Kubernik was an
invited guest by the Library of Congress National Recording
Preservation Board to speak on their Study of the Current State of
Recorded Sound Preservation. In early 2007 his interviews with DJ/TV
host Wink Martindale and Doors’ Ray Manzarek were printed in “Goldmine”
magazine, while the same periodical in 2007 will publish his interviews
and profiles of legendary filmmaker D.A. Pennebaker and Arc Music
Group’s Marshall Chess, who also hosts “The Chess Hour” on Sirius
Satellite Radio Network.)
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